Perhaps it was facing the wrong way and just needed a turn-around.
If anybody has an idea, please share.
Sunday, October 28, 2012
Q-House being lifted and transported in Montreal .. where?
Perhaps it was facing the wrong way and just needed a turn-around.
If anybody has an idea, please share.
Without out any checking ( or cheating! ) I suggest the photo is on Decarie looking North with the Tramways tracks for the Cartierville 17 on the left.
ReplyDeleteIn 1938 the 17 still went South to Snowdon Jct. at Decarie and Queen Mary until 1949, when congestion suggested a new Terminus at Garland.
As a child we occasionally boarded the 65 Cote de Neiges at Decarie and Q.M. and I remember construction there for the rearranging of the Tramways tracks for Garland.
Descending Cote de Neiges to Sherbrooke was a thrill on a streetcar, after passing behind the apartment block on the Tramways private Right of Way where Mc Dougal now runs between the Boulevard and Cedar.
Coming back up with a standee load could be tricky as the circuit breaker above the Motorman's head would 'blow' and the car would roll back. etc.
Anyway, I think the photo could be on Decarie looking north.
The street is wide enough.
Thank You.
Decarie makes sense. I assume that quite a few houses once stood in the path of the beautiful expressway.
ReplyDeleteThis house looks like it would fit right in on Monkland, just west of the expressway...
Onkel Charlie.
Decarie looking North seems a reasonable guess but doesn't look right to me although it's been a long time. In 1938 I was 10 and lived in Snowdon.(Trans-Island Avenue) It's those substantial looking buildings that would be on the East side. Headed North from Queen Mary most apartments were on little Decarie on the West side of the tracks and the further North you went the less there was on either side.
ReplyDeleteThe previous photos were mainly from Montreal West and Cote St Luc.Was there anything out there that would fit?
In photo number 2, in the distance, beyond the Tramways, between the billboard on the left and the house being moved, there is a home with horizontal brickwork.
ReplyDeleteOn present-day Google there is an identical structure on the Northwest corner of Bourret and Decarie.
The apartments on the East side of Decarie on Google correspond with the the ones visible to the right in the 1938 views.
The 'racks' on the roofs of the apartments in the older photos support clotheslines for the tennants to hang their washing on come laundry day.
The traffic light on the corner in the image with the convertible auto would be at Cote Ste. Catherine.
Ma and Pa and Otis look right at home on the porch.
The question is now, Where was the house moved TO??
Thank You.
The east side of Decarie Blvd. looking north--just north of Cote St. Catherine Rd.
ReplyDeleteIn photo number 2, the building directly behind the man in black with the black cap (behind the white-bordered billboard sign)
is 5745 Decarie, today still with its white painted doorway entrance.
The building to its right with the girl in a dress standing on the second floor balcony was later replaced with another which today houses Fresser's delicatessen/bakery.
The right hand edge of the photo cuts off where for many years there was a gas station: from the early 50s a BA, then a Gulf,
then finally a Petro-Canada, which itself was demolished a few years back and replaced by a retirees condo--which is presumably the very spot from which the house on blocks in the foreground was being moved!
The pointy-roofed building to the right of 5745 was demolished and an empty lot stood there until 1956when Decarie Towers (address 5757) was erected there. In fact, my grandmother lived there briefly. At that time it was the tallest
building in the neighbourhood. All of those hedges in front of the aforementioned buildings are long gone as well.
On the other side of Decarie between the house on blocks and the billboard sign partially cut off to the left on the other
side of the streetcar tracks which then ran down the centre of Decarie can be seen a low-storied building. This is 5800-5802
(Tessima Coiffure) on the northwest corner of Bourret Avenue.
This is one of the neighbourhoods in which I grew up, which is why the photo looked awfully familiar to me, despite it being taken in 1938. Apartment building designs are often very similar across the city so one can easily be fooled, nevertheless some things just stick in your mind.
In the end, though, the final detail that that clinched it for me was the fire hydrant in front of 5745. Such fixtures are
rarely changed even over decades.
I wonder where that house was moved to? It too looks awfully familiar! I doubt if it went very far, though. Maybe I'll get
lucky and spot it someday. Perhaps someone who lives there today can tell us?
Note the dog in photo number 1 sitting on the balcony of that house as if everything happening around him is normal!
Lovell's Directory for 1946 lists S. Sprule at 5707 and Hugh McCoy at 5709 Decarie.
ReplyDeleteIn 1948 Lovell's shows Hugh McCoy (a police captain at station number 10) domiciled at 5198 Trans Island Avenue on the west side of the street and north of Queen Mary Road.
Google maps shows that same building with some renovations directly adjacent to another to its south.
Presumably, McCoy being a police captain, designated him as worthy of a story about his "moving house"--literally--several blocks south along Decarie, east on Queen Mary, and then (carefully) north onto Trans Island--assuming that was the route used.
Note: date of photos has been corrected to 1947, if that makes a difference.
ReplyDeleteUrban Legend (and M.P. and I., falconbird, etc.)
ReplyDeleteGreat detective work.
The change of date to 1947 does make a difference, as does the addition of the third photo.
ReplyDeleteI THOUGHT Canada Savings Bonds were a World War Two 'thing' and that Montreal Tramways had painted up several streetcars in a special scheme to advertise the issue of the new bonds.
Two other 'things' that might interest the Montreal Urban Archaeologists who enjoy ferreting out physical and structural artifacts.
One. The City of Montreal 'Permit' affixed by wood strips to the wall of the house in the photo of the lady holding the milk bottle, the Permit covering the moving of the house.
Otis is right in there by the railing, wagging his tail.
These permits were everywhere that there was construction, BUT, the diagonal lines across them were of DIFFERENT COLOURS! Red for New Construction, Yellow for Demolition as I recall.
There were other colours, too.
Two. The house address number plate, which would have to be changed at the 'New Address'.
The number plates, which I assume came from the City?? were White numbers on Dark Blue ENAMEL on metal plate thru 1950/51, then were changed to be Black numbers on White PAINT 1951 and later.
Our house on Saranac had the White on Blue enamel plates, the brand-new house in NDG had the cheaper Black on White painted version.
So, when a person is out perusing, he can do a quick check on the age of a house or other building in older areas by looking at the address plate, if still original.
Thank You.
Interesting fact about the number plates...
ReplyDeleteI grew up on Dalou Street, next street north of Saranac.(http://haroldro.multiply.com/)
My house was built in 1929, and the address plate was, in fact, white on blue. Above the entrance door was the older 3-digit street address, in a stained glass window.
Sweet memories....
Regarding the address number plates...
ReplyDeleteThe black-on-white ones you still see everywhere aren't restricted to Montreal. I did a job for someone in Rougemont last year and the building had one of those very same address plates.
The latest ones that I know of are from buildings built 1991-92. They stayed the same for decades.
The white-on-blue ones are nice, too. I like them both.
There are many houses on Cote St Antoine that still have the pre-1930 address in stained glass above the door.
My old girlfriend's place on Melrose between Monkland and NDG had that two..the old numbers in stained glass above the main door.
DeleteAddress numbers on Montreal's buildings were changed from 3-digit to four digits on the older streets in order to accomodate street length expansion.
ReplyDeleteIn some cases, the address numbering direction would be reversed: in other words, if numbering originally increased going north, it would increase going south instead.
By the way, don't always take Lovell's listings as gospel. I have been tripped up by glaring errors and omissions. Must be a boring job collecting such statistics, I'm sure, and corrections may not show up for years.
Sometimes your own memories are more accurate!
Thank You clarifying the use of address number plates.
ReplyDeleteI was confining my observations to Montreal area and never considered they could well be used elsewhere.
I ASSUMED they were issued at some point in the structure's construction and would be tied into the paperwork somewhere regarding the lot.
It would be interesting to find the date when the addresses were 'unified' on the Island.
I remember 3 digit addresses in the transom glass on Decarie between Cote St. Luc and Sherbrooke, and thought they added a bit of class to a residence.
Went along with the turnkey-operated door bells in the centre of the front door, and the pull rope on pulleys to open the front door on the outside landing from the next floor up.
More Memories.
Thank You!
Decarie Blvd. switched over from 3 to 4 digit address numbers according to the 1930-31 Lovell's directory.
ReplyDeleteRemember that such a changeover would take years to complete for every street.
Regardless of when the addresses in Montreal were unified and completed, it WOULD have been a Mounmental Task!!
ReplyDeleteI remember seeing my first 5-digit address when we went to Ahuntsic to see my Grandfather's house on LaJeunesse at Kelly/Henri Bourassa near the Tramways Ahuntsic Station, and was amazed!
A long way to Ahuntsic on a streetcar!!
Likewise when we first drove out to Crabtree Mills via Point Aux Trembles in the new car. 5-digit addresses out the East end, too!!!
BIG place, this, called Montreal, our home.
The addresses starting with a '0' on certain streets below the Lachine Canal were mystifying.
I used to drive commercially all over the region and outside the Island. Having Montreal's addresses in a more or less unified flow South to North and East and West sure helped a driver find his way.
Now THE MAIN POINT of this particular missive!!!!!
Great Police Work!!
Thank You AGAIN, Mr. Urban Legend!!
The house at 5198 Trans Island IS the same as the one once at 5709 Decarie, the narrow window btwn. the doors, as you said!!!!!!
Great Research! Sir!!
Could they have used a cross street such as Isabella over to Trans Island to move the house? as Queen Mary/Decarie/Snowdon Jct. before Terminus Garland in 1949 would have been awash with streetcars and congestion to move a house thru?
Could the developer? who took over the old lot at 5707-09 Decarie have paid for the whole move?
Who was listed at 5707-09 Decarie after the house was moved????
Many changes since we went to Belmont Park on the 17 streetcar.
Cartierville 17 heading North on steel trestle over CPR at Decarie between Vezina and Namur/Jean Jalon.
http://dewi.ca/trains/montreal/pix/a005_13.jpg
Very interesting!!
Thank You, all!
Big difference between 1938 and post-war 1949.Interesting comments.
ReplyDeleteCaptain Hugh McCoy must have wanted to prove a point about moving his home elsewhere, committing his resources to such
ReplyDeletea daunting task rather than have it demolished. Perhaps his property tax was set lower at the new Trans Island address?
Surely there is an interesting back-story to all of this which would take a herculean amount of research to determine. After all, things could have gone terribly wrong. What if a major crack had occurred!
The BA gas station--which I assume was the next building to occupy that 5707-09 location--didn't appear until a few years later, so presumably the house was not under some imminent deadline to be expropriated or moved. More facts are needed.
Since it is the 5709 doorway that is open in the photo, may we safely assume that we are looking at Captain McCoy's wife and
dog? If so, then most likely it is Captain McCoy himself taking the photo.
I have not yet checked Lovell's further to see how much longer McCoy lived at the new address on Trans Island, but I AM really
tempted to notify today's existing residents there that their home used to be elsewhere! How amazed they would be!
One can only wonder how often such problematic house moves took place, and how much it cost to accomplish it!
When I lived on Trans Island, it was a one-way north and remains so today. Someone back then told me that it had once been a two-way, but exactly when, if, and for how long, I have no idea. It is, however, a narrow street laid out around 1912 so I can't see it ever
having been a two-way for long, therefore I doubt that using Isabella to access Trans Island from the north would be an
option. Only the movers know for sure!
The name "Trans Island Avenue" was probably christened as a trick name since it was parallel to Decarie Blvd.--then itself
virtually a trans-island thoroughfare. Logically, they could have renamed Decarie as Trans Island, which would have made more sense. The "Trans Island Expressway". More fitting, isn't it?
The entire district was segmented into lots from former farm land around 1912-13. Decarie (then Monkland Blvd.) was then
highly-touted as THE place for real estate investment. See the Gazette, May 4. 1912, page 8 to see a full page ad about it.
For further west end research and articles, see the French newspaper La Patrie for June 29, 1912.
Re: street (re)numbering: It took something like 15 years (1915-1930) to renumber Montreal street addresses. Note that suburbs such as Westmount and Outremont kept most of their old addresses.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm not mistaken, anytime a house number changed, the owner was given a new white and blue address plate. Thus - most existing white and blue address plates date back to somewhere between 1915 and 1930.
I also remember on the brickwork next to the address nameplate was often a number painted within a small circle. I often wondered what that meant.
ReplyDeleteMontreal's Bureau des Permis et Inspections has street and building construction details and archives, although I haven't visited their office for several years when they were on St. Antoine E.
Their website is:
http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=95,247666&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Further research into the "moving house" of Captain McCoy in 1947 reveals some further facts and the inevitable speculation where facts are not readily available.
ReplyDeleteAccording to 1946 Lovell's, there was a Joy Oil service station on the southeast corner of Cote St. Catherine Rd., at 5575 Decarie. This structure was later replaced by the unique, drive-in Bank of Montreal, itself since closed for a few decades but currently closed and empty for years. Possibly the BMO still owns it and plans to re-open at some future date?
Now, look at photo 2 showing the alleged Mrs. McCoy receiving her milk bottle and handing in her empty one to the milkman. Notice the quaint-looking white house behind on the northeast corner of Cote St. Catherine Rd. This must be 5701 Decarie, listed as the home of resident "Miron Ls".
Logically then, 5707-09 was just to the north of 5701 Miron Ls--the latter house itself eventually demolished since in the 1952 Lovell's it is newly listed as occupied by J. Paul Roy, who I know for a fact was the proprietor of the BA (British American) gas station which from that year was in business for decades until it was bought out by Gulf, later
replaced by Petro-Canada and then finally now a retirees-condo.
It so happens that the father of my next door childhood friend on Trans Island was employed at the BA. I must have filled my bicycle tires with air a million times at that BA and its successors!
Correction to my UL post above:
Delete5701 Decarie was in fact the lot upon which the BA service station was built and first listed in Lovell's 1934-35 edition.
The "Miron Ls" listed first in Lovell's 1940 at that address simply referred to Monsieur Morin being the BA's proprietor and he remained as such until Jean Paul Roy took over as indicated in Lovell's 1952.
The "white house" I referred to above is definitely NOT a "house" at 5701 Decarie, but in fact the photo shows the chateau-style Joy Oil gas station at 5575 Decarie then located on the SE corner with Cote Ste. Catherine Road before the subsequent Bank of Montreal replaced it around 1953 (itself later closing). One of the Joy station's gasoline pumps can be seen in the background above the milkman's left elbow.
The 1947 aerial map for this area clearly shows the 5705-5709 Decarie duplex then occupied by Max Barr and (police captain) Hugh McCoy, as well as the empty lot at 5198-5200 Trans Island awaiting the future arrival of the duplex, and the Joy Oil station in the center of its lot at 5575 Decarie. See:
http://archivesdemontreal.com/greffe/vues-aeriennes-archives/jpeg/VM97-3_7P13-20.jpg
Sorry for the confusion.
In reference to the small number in a circle painted on buildings.
ReplyDeleteIF the Circle was WHITE and about 4 inches in diameter with BLACK numbers about 1 1/2 inches high stenciled thereupon, this was used by the City to locate water shutoffs from the City water main out from the foundation or edge of the building.
Often the shut offs were hidden under lawn, or in winter, ice and snow.
Sometimes the numbers would be stenciled on WITHOUT the white background.
The number was the distance in feet to the shut off.
Two number locations on adjacent buildings would be used as a starting point for tape measures, and where they intersected would be the valve location.
If a valve top was 'lost', the City deployed a crew with an electrical measuring device with a meter which could 'pick up' a valve top underground.
Fire hydrants had the numbers for their shut off valves stenciled on their tops facing to where the valve was.
Water shut off valves in the street usually had cast iron covers badged MWW.
A City worker went around with a wrench in winter partly opening and closing the hydrant valve, which was down in a riser below the frost line, and any that did not open properly, being frozen, would be recorded.
Later, the City would show up with a truck pulling a small coal-fired steam boiler on a 2-wheel trailer ( Both truck and trailer Grey with Red wheels. The City colours back then. ) and, after removing the cap apply a steam hose to one of the hydrant openings, and the steam turned on until ice thawed and water flowed.
Hydrants had to be ready for instant use when the fire trucks showed up!!
If a water service pipe froze into a building, the tenants called the City and another City truck would arrive, it having a gasoline electric generator on the back.
One heavy cable with a clamp would be run to the nearest hydrant, the other attached inside the building where the water service entered from the street.
The generator would be started and run until the electric current thru the pipes would heat their metal, thawing the ice inside, and the water would flow.
When the generator was 'thawing' it could interfere with the house lighting, causing the lights to flicker, the Hydro often using the water pipe for a 'Ground'.
The employee would then bill the customer, give a receipt, and advise the client to let cold water run slightly from a tap until the cold weather abated.
Other City crews went around cleaning chimneys for a fee, many residences still heating with coal or coke.
Other markings were often painted in red paint on poles and buildings, numbers and arrows, to help City workers locate catch basins when they had to be found in spring to allow melt water flow away, OR during a fire when much water was being pumped onto a blaze, or from a broken water main.
In very cold weather, water would collect and freeze, causing a big problem, especially for streetcars and their track and switches.
There were small metal bridges that could be placed on streetcar rails to allow streetcars' wheels to pass over fire hoses.
In this case, not in Montreal, they decided to go over.
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/29/2983/89JQD00Z/posters/fire-hoses-stretched-over-a-streetcar-photograph.jpg
Thank You.
Must have been the water shut-off valve number in that circle.
ReplyDeleteSuch valves are generally very visible on front lawns and even in the sidewalk itself: that sort of rust-brown coloured, approx. 4-inch diameter circular object.
I once watched the city replace the entire entry pipe from the street into a building.
The pipe itself is about ten feet down (surely beneath the "frost line"?). This pipe must be covered with a layer of gravel before regular dirt is replace on top of that.
Correction:
ReplyDeleteThe aforementioned BA service station at the NE corner of Decarie and Cote Ste. Catherine Rd. was succeeded by Gulf and then by an Ultramar--NOT a Petro-Canada as I had erroneously stated.
An example of the old numbers in the glass above the door, and the new number below. (Decarie east side, south of Monkland). The building to the left also shows both numbers.
ReplyDeletehttp://goo.gl/maps/f7Or6
5453 (+/-) Coolbrook maybe ?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4853426,-73.6358776,3a,44.2y,34.98h,96.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_hvjEtBfGKqlQmL_iPKSWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fr
No, but VERY close in design. Must have been some architect's standard duplex offering back in the day.
DeleteCheck Lovell's 1948 and beyond and it is clearly 5198-5200 Trans Island Avenue. A rear addition was built later, as can be seen in today's Google Map.
Regarding the grounding of a dwelling's plumbing, I have been informed by a well-established plumbing contractor and certified electrician that not every building in Montreal (and presumably elsewhere in North America--if not indeed the rest of the world) has its water pipes (generally made of copper) actually grounded (or "earthed" as they say in the U.K.), which means that in many instances the third and presumably "grounded" prong on household electrical outlets may not in fact be grounded at all.
ReplyDeleteI've been told that the reason for this lack of actual grounding is either an oversight by the builder or perhaps even a deliberate, irresponsible decision. To have a non-grounded building "retro-grounded" might result in considerable expense, which is why many landlords hesitate to have it done.
The reason and importance of such grounding is explained here:
https://www.twielectric.com/safety-and-energy-saving-tips/home-electrical-properly-grounded/